Black Bear is a psychological thriller that drops audiences into the struggles of three characters and their complicated relationships with each other at a remote lake house. I had a chance to discuss the film with director Lawrence Michael Levine about the the challenges of making this film and how it all fell into place.

Note The first half of this interview is non-spoiler conversation about the movie for anyone interested in seeing the movie without spoilers. Midway through, Thomas indicates when spoiler conversation begins, so if you want to avoid knowing crucial details about the film, there’s a clear spoiler alert where you can stop reading or watching.

Read Thomas’s review of Black Bear here. The film is streaming as part of the Vancouver International Film Festival until October 7th for BC residents, and is being released on December 4th.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Hey everyone, Thomas here with for real movie news interviews. And I am joined today by Lawrence Michael Levine, Director of Black Bear, a psychological thriller that is streaming at the 2020 Vancouver International Film Festival. Lawrence, I am so happy to be talking to you. Thank you for taking the time out to do this.

Lawrence Michael Levine

My pleasure.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Yeah, yeah. Um, so I watched Black Bear and, like I kind of mentioned to you, I really, really enjoyed the film and what it does psychologically, not only just with the characters, and how it's kind of psychological game with the characters, but also with the audience. I think it was very well done very well put together and I'm happy that it's screening at the Vancouver International Film Festival.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Well thank you.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Yeah, so, when trying to think about how to discuss this film, I want to be able to discuss things so that people who haven't seen the film can can enjoy a little bit of our discussion, but I also want to talk about things about the film that might be spoilers and probably better for people who have seen the film. So I'm going to kind of break this interview up into those two parts. Okay?

Lawrence Michael Levine

Sounds good.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

So I guess I want to start off with, I think you'll probably be able to explain better than I can? What is this movie about? How would you explain this to someone who has just kind of heard the title and it might be hearing the buzz?

Lawrence Michael Levine

When you say what it's about, do you mean, like the plot? Or are you talking about thematically?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Let's talk thematically, because like I said, I don't want to give too much of the plot away, I do think it's one of those movies that the less you know going into it, the better. That was certainly my experience and it's such a great experience to not know a whole lot going into it, but thematically, what would you say about the film?

Lawrence Michael Levine

In some ways, I would say that my interpretation of the film or what I think it's about is probably is not very different from a viewer who would see it or - in other words, I think the way this movie came out of me was an interpretation. I would be doing an interpretation on something that came out of me, just like you would. Because I didn't start out with any notion of "I want to make a movie about..." The process was much more intuitive. And I think it's more of a snapshot of certain maybe unconscious, subconscious tensions, or - it's a it's a hard question to answer, but I feel like the theme that emerged, clearly - but this to me only emerged once I had written script - could I look at it and say, "What's this all about?" And so in some ways, I think it's similar to what you would do. You watch the movie,  and think about what it's about to do. You know? But I think the word for me was creativity and what it can be and what it can mean and kind of where it comes from. And the relationship between creativity and life, and how separate they are, if at all. Those are the themes that the movie ended up exploring. But again, it was no conscious intention of mine to explore those themes. The story kind of emerged out of me really intuitively, and was not consciously constructed.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I think that that's so fascinating, because I do think that it's stitched together so well, so intentionally, I guess, and maybe that's just kind of how, what you're talking about with it being kind of an authentic, organic kind of story that came out of you. And the way that it did, it wasn't pre planned, it just kind of happened, which is great. Um, I think one of the themes that I noticed in the movie is like, the lengths an artist is willing to go to, in order to, like, to get the best out of their work, right? Is that something that you experienced personally, when you're creating a film?

Lawrence Michael Levine

Very, very much so. But there's all elements of sadism. And, or, well, I would say, sadomasochism. Which is the one where you hurt yourself?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Right, right, right.

Lawrence Michael Levine

So, there’s a relationship - I have a tendency toward - I guess workaholism? Maybe that’s is the word, I don't know if that's a real thing or not.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I mean, I can understand that. I am a perfectionist and so I put a lot of time and effort into any work I do and that's just how it is. And I spend a lot of time and hours doing it and putting everything that I can into it. So I kind of understand that kind of workaholic, aspect or nature in creating things.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah, I think it's a tendency to - I have a tendency to, well, let's just put it this way: I'm not always certain that my choice to be an artist, and the behaviors that I indulge in to create work are necessarily healthy for me.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Okay.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah, I think it's a tendency to - I have a tendency to, well, let's just put it this way: I'm not always certain that my choice to be an artist, and the behaviors that I indulge in to create work are necessarily healthy for me. And by the same token, I'm not sure they're often healthy for the people around. So this is a constant thing that I wonder about in my life and think about and I have to make a conscious effort to have balance in my life and not to, not to put my creativity and my artistic impulses first. You know, that's something that I have to consciously do. But I think if there's anyone who - and you know, you can have a deeper conversation about this, because the notion of a tortured artist is sort of a cliche at this point, but the artistic choice can be a difficult one. The choice to be an artist or creative person can be a difficult one. And it has been for me. It’s been a difficult path and I think the movie reflects that. I mean, I don't treat people on set the way that - you know - or I don't behave the way that certain people in this movie do. But the idea of stopping at nothing to create work is familiar.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I think that that's such a fascinating thing to be to be self aware of. Just because it is I guess - it sounds like, there's so much uncertainty - I guess there's uncertainty a lot when it comes to art and that's reflected in the movie. I think we can say, there's a component to the movie where the artists in the film are kind of, like, struggling artists, right? Like, there's this component where, you know, they're trying to do what they enjoy doing with art, but aren't quite finding the success that they want. I think it's safe to say that without spoiling anything, and so it's so fascinating to hear you talk about your own experience with art and how that shows up in the film, which is really cool. Um, but I guess speaking of the characters in the movie, you have you have a stellar cast, I think. The movie works so well, for me, just because the performances that are put on by your three leading actors, Aubrey Plaza, Chris Abbott, and Sarah Gadon - I think how you pronounce her name, Gadon. So it's a really, really great cast. Really great chemistry with them. And again, I have to talk about this without spoiling anything. But I do want to know how that that cast was assembled. I think I read that you had history with Aubrey Plaza before people knew her on Parks and Recreation. How did this -

Lawrence Michael Levine

Wait, what did you just say?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

It's like, I'm pretty sure I read that you had like history or encounters with Aubrey Plaza before Parks and Recreation.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Oh correct, that is true. 

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I wanted to clarify that because most people do know her from Parks and Recreation. And so, you know, I guess it's interesting that she now gets to work with you or you get to work with her. But how did this cast come together? Is really what I'm getting at with the question.

Lawrence Michael Levine

It's true. I studied improv and did improv in New York City at the same time that she was doing it. But I didn't know her. I did a show with her. My group performed after her group, so I've watched her perform a few times, I don't think she was aware of me, but I have no conception. She was brilliant in that context. But I had no notion I was going to work with her, or that we would speak or anything. But, yeah, I met her years later through a mutual friend. We became friendly. And then eventually I worked on a TV show with her, with the mutual friend who introduced us: Joe Swanberg. And so we did his TV show together, and we got to know each other better on that show. And I had a good time working together. And I saw how serious she was about what she did, and how dedicated she was to the quality of the things she was working on. And I thought it'd be great to work with her. So I wrote a movie with her in mind. I'm hoping that she would do it. And luckily she did. 

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Awesome

Lawrence Michael Levine

Did that answer your question? But that was for Aubrey specifically.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I think it's cool how, like, how that series of events happened. I mean, it's important to clarify that it wasn't like a long term friendship that happened and then ended up with this. It's you guys kind of encountered each other at one point, and then your paths cross again,which is a really cool way for everything to kind of fall into place. But also, you know, Christopher, and Sarah, I mean, they're also great performers and are and are doing really great things with their career right now as well.

Lawrence Michael Levine

So Aubrey's agent got behind the project once he read it. And he helped me get Sarah and Chris attached as well. They're in the same agency. So he did a bunch of work behind the scenes to help get the script to them. And then they wanted to do it as well. So that was - I hadn't met either of them before, although I was definitely a fan of both them. And I wanted - both them were my first choices for the role. So everybody that I - all three of the people that I wanted ended up in the movie. So that's great. And that's unusual. Usually, schedules don't work out or somebody passes or whatever. But in this case I was just lucky.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Yeah, lucky. And I guess intuitive as well, because like I said, they really work together well in making these dysfunctional characters work. You know, it's a very interesting thing.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah. But you expect that from good actors, you know?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Yeah, lucky. And I guess intuitive as well, because like I said, they really work together well in making these dysfunctional characters work. You know, it's a very interesting thing. Absolutely. And yeah, kudos on bringing that team together and also been working well. So the location. This movie takes place at a lake house. And it's a gorgeous property. Tell me more about how you guys chose to film there. And yet, how all that came to happen?

Lawrence Michael Levine

Well, the the genesis of the movie, aside from my having worked with Aubrey, also a friend of mine, sent me a bunch of photos of his country house, and was like, "You should make a movie here," you know. Like, "my family has this place. I think it'd be a great place to shoot a movie." So I was like, I looked over the photos, and I thought, "Oh, yeah, this would be a good place to shoot a movie." So with that in my head, I wrote something to take place in that specific country house based on the pictures. But when it came time, when we were finally ready to make the movie, that place was no longer available. [laughs] So I've written it for this very specific place. And it had all these attributes that were hard to replicate. And the only place we found was the one you see in the movie. The property needed to have three separate structures and from each of these structures, the same lake needed to be visible. And this was the only property that we looked at that had that attribute. It had the disadvantage of being about eight hours from New York City and three hours from Albany three hours from Montreal, so it was really remote...It was very remote; eight miles in on a dirt road. It was off the grid. There was no Wi-Fi, very little phone service on the grounds, and it was solar powered and the solar generator was not in good shape and kept breaking. So there was a price to pay for that location, but…

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

So were there significant production challenges because of that change in plans?

Lawrence Michael Levine

...yes....[laughs]

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

[laughs] I guess every production has production challenges, but maybe what I’m getting at -

Lawrence Michael Levine

Not like this one. [laughs]

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

[laughs] What was the hardest part about filming this movie?

Lawrence Michael Levine

The schedule was difficult - was only 19 days. The house was too big and had too many windows for us to tint, so we have to shoot everything at night. The whole movie - most of the movie takes place at nights so we had to shoot only nights. And night's only eight hours long in the summer. So it's not like we could do any overtime. We had eight hours to shoot and if we didn't get what we needed in those eight hours we didn't get, we weren't going to get it because I had no reshoots - I had no ability to do any reshoots. And like I said, the power kept going out. This generator was - this solar power generator was broken. And eventually we got a gas burning generator in there to help us. But the first week, I lost an enormous amount of time to these blackouts. So what was already a very rushed shoot was even more rushed. And communications were difficult. We didn't have - like I said, we didn't have Wi-Fi, we didn't have phone service. So everything was walkie talkies. The actors were staying about an hour away from the set, because there was no place close by to stay. And the food was pretty bad. It wasn't very comfortable. 

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

It's almost like - and I guess - it's almost like you were filming the film you were filming? [laugh] Because so much of what you're saying actually happens, or is a component of the narrative in the movie - it's like - it's very interesting to analyze having seen the film.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah and some things were in there in the script, so they seem to have magically created the circumstances that -  because we found ourselves in the exact circumstance, for example. And then some things I more brought in from the shoot we were experiencing as we were shooting.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Wow, that's really, really cool to know and to get some behind the scenes info on, that's just really great. Um, I would now like to transition into the spoilers part of this conversation. So for anyone watching who hasn't seen Black Bear, definitely check it out. It is streaming with the Vancouver International Film Festival on their VIFF Connect platform until October 7, I strongly recommend it. And for those who have seen it, let's get into talking more about the details and the plot of what's going on with this movie. So if I remember correctly, it's broken up into two stories, right? So I'm curious as to how you decided to. like - how these two stories became what made this movie. And I also want to know if there are any other stories that you were thinking about putting, or were these just the two stories that you that you wanted, and always plan for?

Lawrence Michael Levine

You know, it's tough to say because like I told you, there was very little planning going on. I make my living as a screenwriter and most of the projects that I work on are for hire, and they're way more conventional. And so when I set out to write this script, I was really shaking off a lot of that stuff, I'm just tired of doing, you know - when you do work for producers, or networks, or or production companies, you usually have to sell a pitch, which means that you have to tell them what your plan is. And then you have to show them your outline, and they have to approve that. And then you've showed them drafts and they have to approve those. This wasn't like that. I mean, I didn't have any plan at all. I didn't have an outline. I didn't have any of these things, I really just went to my office and started to write - intentionally because I wanted to work in this more spontaneous, intuitive way. So really, the way that this worked out was me starting getting to know these characters, exploring their dynamics with one another, and seeing where those dynamics took me. And then it was always just a question of what is the most interesting or surprising thing that could happen next. So I didn't even start out with the intention of doing a movie in two parts or anything like that. I just started to write and my first story came to a culmination and it wasn't a feature length movie. So I thought, well, what could I do next that would make would be really interesting to see. And it was kind of like, Well, I can tell some story that relates to this one, in an interesting way. And then a number of options kind of proposed themselves to me, and I chose the one that you see in the movie. But um, you know, it really wasn't a plan to do a movie in two parts or anything like that, it was much more - every day, I would just go there, go to the office and be like, what's the next most interesting thing that can happen?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Wow. That’s incredible.

Lawrence Michael Levine

It could've continued linearly from the point that it breaks into the second half. I could have kept going with the story. After part one that could have just - but I thought it'd be more interesting. There was some finality that I felt at the end of part one, that I felt like, Well, no, I don't want to keep this one going. I want to comment on what we just saw, and how can I make that interesting? And I will say it did come from the character that I created; the character of Alison, and her life and her issues, all that stuff that I imagined. I found that in a two part structure would be a cool and interesting way to explore that. And I'm interested in movies that ask you to think about them as constructions, not just get wrapped up in the story, and the reality of it. But to work with a sort of double action where you're wrapped up in the story, but then at certain moments, you're wondering about the construct that you're watching, and why it's being constructed a certain way. Does that makes sense? I don't know.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

That makes total sense. I think for me, it was fascinating, because again, I went into it not knowing much about it at all, I think a friend of mine had said hey, you know, Black Bear is one I want to see, and I'm like, Oh, I haven't heard of that one. Let me go check it out. And so, that's one of the benefits in watching films at film festivals is you don't have a whole lot of like, media and promotions, and everything kind of spoiling things. You get to kind of go into it with a fresh perspective. And so I did, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And I think that every moment that happened, I just like, got more and more invested into how bizarre it was getting and how awkward at times it was and how emotionally draining it is. It's a heavy film. But I like that because it does - it allowed me as a viewer to spend time in it like trying to piece together like, what's going on? Who are these characters? There's, so many mind games going on, like I kind of said, between the characters, but also with the audience. Part one I have, I still have no idea what to believe. You know? Everything is so - you don't know who to trust, there's things that are said that are then unsaid or reverted or, you know, lies. And it's just so fascinating to experience the first time through. But then Part Two takes, it seems to take a lot of the components from part one, and then kind of rearrange them.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Which just put the movie, and again, you talking about not going to a linear fashion in part two, I absolutely respect that decision, because it does really lend itself to that reconstruction and kind of piecing it together as far as like, the components of these characters and not just this linear story.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Which just put the movie, and again, you talking about not going to a linear fashion in part two, I absolutely respect that decision, because it does really lend itself to that reconstruction and kind of piecing it together as far as like, the components of these characters and not just this linear story. Yeah, have I made it clear that I really liked this movie? [laughs] So - I even last what I was, oh, my next question! Um, it kind of gets back to your experience in life and filmmaking. And what happens in this film, we discussed the fact that, you know, you've experienced being like, an artist that's unsure about your art and that convey is conveyed in a couple of the characters. You talk about production issues and small filming windows, which also is a component of the plot in this movie. I was very curious as to if you have worked with a difficult actor or maybe a difficult crew member before because that's a major part of the story. And so with us talking about how much you've experienced that made it into the Is that something that you've experienced? Or encountered as a filmmaker?

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah, yeah, sure. And I've also been a difficult actor. I mean, I've been on all sides of that - I've been on all sides of that particular dynamic. But unfortunately, I'm not really at liberty to tell stories about that.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Of course.

Lawrence Michael Levine

The idea of difficult actors is an interesting one. Actors have a very vulnerable job. And, the idea that they’re difficult is an anti - it's kind of like an anti actor perspective, because I think a lot of people don't really understand what actors do. They have to get to a really emotional place. And some of those places are not enjoyable. And it's not so easy to, you know - you're doing a scene where you just found out that your father died or something, you know. Well, you have to cultivate a mood of grief, for example, if that's your reaction to the death of your father. And that's not a pleasant place to be or pleasant mood to sustain. And it's sort of unrealistic for people to expect that an actor can feel this deep grief, and then snap out of it and just be a lovely guy to talk to at lunch. So I think, you know, I think actors get a bad rap for being difficult. So I think what I would say is, you find yourself in difficult situations with actors, and nobody ever talks about the director. I mean, what if the director is difficult? What if the production itself is terribly difficult and trying on people, I think people talk about difficult actors. It's a sort of shallow kind of conversation. But, movie sets are challenging places. People are working under high pressure, under a lot of pressure. Time constraints are real, even on big films. And they're exploring, often upsetting emotions. And they're tricky places - tricky, tricky, emotional places to navigate. So that's what I would say.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Of course.

Lawrence Michael Levine

The idea of difficult actors is an interesting one. Actors have a very vulnerable job. And, the idea that they’re difficult is an anti - it's kind of like an anti actor perspective, because I think a lot of people don't really understand what actors do. They have to get to a really emotional place. And some of those places are not enjoyable. And it's not so easy to, you know - you're doing a scene where you just found out that your father died or something, you know. Well, you have to cultivate a mood of grief, for example, if that's your reaction to the death of your father. And that's not a pleasant place to be or pleasant mood to sustain. And it's sort of unrealistic for people to expect that an actor can feel this deep grief, and then snap out of it and just be a lovely guy to talk to at lunch. So I think, you know, I think actors get a bad rap for being difficult. So I think what I would say is, you find yourself in difficult situations with actors, and nobody ever talks about the director. I mean, what if the director is difficult? What if the production itself is terribly difficult and trying on people, I think people talk about difficult actors. It's a sort of shallow kind of conversation. But, movie sets are challenging places. People are working under high pressure, under a lot of pressure. Time constraints are real, even on big films. And they're exploring, often upsetting emotions. And they're tricky places - tricky, tricky, emotional places to navigate. So that's what I would say.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Awesome, and that's a very, very tactful and understandable response. You make a lot of sense there anything that, again, what's really cool about this conversation is it gives so much context to experiencing the film, just kind of hearing your experience with all these things that end up in the narrative. It's really great. I'm pretty sure we've either come up to or half past our half hour, and I don't want to keep you for too long. But I do want to know, if there's anything that you want people - since we're in the spoiler section - is there anything that you want people who maybe have seen the film, or familiar with the film to know or take away from the film?

Lawrence Michael Levine

I don't want anybody to take anything specific away from the film. I hoped to create a variety of reactions that would then be interesting for people to talk about, you know, after the film or think about by themselves after the film. I was not trying to say one particular thing. I was just trying to explore some characters that felt real to me. And whose problems I found interesting and, and related to. So there's no one thing that I wanted people to take away from the movie. That's the one thing I would say want people to take away. Yeah. This was about characters and I wanted to present them - people in life that you need are - most of the time - are mysterious, unknowable, contradictory, complex, and paradoxical. And I just, I wanted to explore real human beings and how people think and talk about them, perhaps critically or lovingly or how whatever their reactions are, I think it's totally like a dream, like analyzing a dream.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

That's great. And hopefully people do. I think that, like I've said, I think it was a very well put together film. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed what - the decisions you made with it. And the team you put together for it. Everything. I just really really liked this movie. [laughs] Yeah, of course, my last question is the future of the film? What are the plans? Do you guys have any ideas about distribution or I guess any planned distribution or whatever?

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah, it's being distributed by a company called Momentum. They've been great to work with, and they've done a lot of good films. So happy to be with them. And the movie comes out December 4. I think it's going to play some theaters, but obviously, because of the pandemic, not too many. And it's mostly going to stream. So I think it's day and date, December 4, is when it comes out.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Awesome. That’s really great to know.

Lawrence Michael Levine

If America is still a democracy by then...

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

[laughs] Fingers crossed, who knows. But since you mentioned that, I think that that is something - if this is playing in the theater - that's something that I wish I could have experienced for this film, was to have seen it in a theater just because of the types of emotional reactions it made me feel. It would have been interesting to experience that in an audience and kind of have this collective experience of how this movie is unraveling.

Lawrence Michael Levine

So you didn’t see it in a theater?

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

I did not, unfortunately. No here in Washington, they're very, very locked down with theaters - Well, I mean, this is at the Vancouver Film Festival, but I can't get across the border, everything streaming, most of Washington theaters are shut down, unfortunately. If it ever does play at a theater near me, I would jump at the opportunity to go see it with an audience.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big sadness for me that it isn't playing in theaters. I just - I think in particular, this movie is one that you want to see in the dark with other people. Because - 

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Absolutely, and...maybe we can't get to theaters, not all of us. But when December 4 comes around, you know, your gather your friends who are super into like, heavy, heavy, like, you know, critically thinking films and watch it together. Have a discussion afterward. So cool. Well, Lawrence, thank you again for this interview. This has really been amazing. I'm going to have to go watch Black Bear again. Now that we have this discussion.

Lawrence Michael Levine

Thanks for the conversation.

Thomas Stoneham-Judge

Of course! To our listeners and viewers, we like, I said - Black Bear is currently streaming at the Vancouver International Film Festival until October 7, and as we now know, it will hopefully be available to you by December 4. And I look forward to more people seeing it and hopefully having discussions about it.